This thread is for the anime and manga trigun.
We had a thread on old 22 and i think we should have another one. I missed out on the old /mmc/ watch and review, Recently i was reminded of the anime so i'm personally going to check it out. I don't care about spoilers so talk freely on what you enjoy about the story, art and any trivia or fun facts you know.
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EditI loved the original series and am planning on watching the stuff released since. Badlands rumble is on tubi so I can watch it anytime; What I'm more interested in is if anyone here watched, and more importantly would recommend, the reboot that came out recently? I had a pretty kneejerk negative reaction when I found out that milly was taken out, since her and meryl work off each other so well.
i thought it was funny how they hyped up how dangerous vash was, only to reveal that he's retarded. i was thinking about how those guys shot at the bar, wiping everything clean but leaving vash be, how is that possible?
i also feel like its funny how they play around with someone else being vash like the fat guy or the bounty hunter. Why didn't vash keep his gun loaded? what was he seriously doing beforehand where he used all his ammo? also maybe this is just me, but i like the angle of milly and meryl being insurance agents, i don't recall seeing that line of work being used an in an anime before. i guess i'm reminded of the Johnny Dollar radio dramas.
episode one was good, anime around this timeframe are really something to behold. i also dig the tone, the humor is a nice touch and it felt like an escape to another world.
everytime i see a cat i'm forced to post a screencap.
>>544
i checked and apparantly she was namedropped on episode 12 so maybe they'll add her back in? my thing personally,
>3DCG
i watched the sneek peek any maybe it's not something worth getting annoyed over but still, can't help but feel hesitant. i'll watch it eventually after i'm done catching up to the older series.
with episode 2, i'm not sure if anyone noticed but when vash is with marianne, they make his face look like one from a shojo manga, especially with the stupid fucking dialog. i'm pretty sure that might have been the intention, to poke fun at the genre, lol.
>>544
I cannot state this more clearly: do NOT, I repeat, do NOT watch the reboot. It's all of the WORST of modern anime put together in one package. Milly is gone, Merryl is dashed, Wolfwood sucks, the art style is ASS. I HATE IT SO MUCH.
>>543
I'm assuming you were inspired to make this thread by the "cool anime thread"? Trigun is one of my favorites and part of that is because of the style and animation.
In my opinion I think that the first two episodes are some of the absolute weakest, and the show really hits its stride at around episode 5. That's when it gets really good and it doesn't stop getting better until the end.
>>548
if two of the episodes that i watched are the weakest then i feel like i'm heading to something really fucking epic.
I guess they really where standard but i feel like it was decent filler for what it's worth, introduce the characters and see how they handel situations and eachother.
I watched it, and I have to say I really dislike the second half. The first half is mostly great, but once it goes anime-original the writing just shits itself with constant manufactured drama and characters doing constant stupid out of character shit for no reason to the point that it just pissed me off. When it gets to the final fight between Vash and Knives, where it's just 2 OP retards shooting mega death beams at each other, I just laughed at what I as witnessing. All the cleverness of the fights was just gone and it turned into generic trite.
>>548
>and the show really hits its stride at around episode 5.
That's where the manga actually starts. Part of why I like it better. The manga opens with the Nebraska Father and Son fight as the first story, with Vash being classified as a human natural disaster from the get-go, which is the entire reason Meryl and Millie are after him (As the insurance society protects against natural disasters). This also neatly explains why the town stops trying to kill him after Meryl and Millie enter the scene.
I like this a lot better than the anime, where they take until the fifth moon arc to classify him as a natural disaster. And waste the first 5 episodes meandering on a manufactured "mystery" of who Vash could be as if it is not blatantly obvious. The first episode of the anime is also infinitely worse at setting up Vash, Millie, and Meryl than the manga's opening arc. The number of people, including you, who claim that the anime becomes properly engaging at episode 5, further supports my point that it should have just started there. Just puts you right into the action with a solid opening story that introduces everyone neatly, hints at the main villain and puts you right into the most exciting parts of the story.
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>>552
I actually disagree. I think that the pacing of the manga is pretty bad and the fact that it starts at the Nebraska fight doesn't give enough buildup or impact to that event. Even though the anime starts off kind of weak I think that those sorts of episodes are important because they can create natural intrigue by sheer virtue of the fact that until then you haven't really seen Vash do anything that crazy. It's slower and more subtle, allowing the viewer plenty of time to think about and appreciate the way that Vash approaches problems that he solves before getting to the meat of the experience. It's foreplay. It also helps to establish the characters and formula of the show in a more long-term format, to help build up to the moment that it's broken in the later episodes.
Also, I don't think that the show is actually trying to convince the viewer that Vash isn't Vash. I think Merryl not believing that he's Vash and being in denial about it all is mostly nice flavor to add to the experience, building Vash up as this mythical figure in your mind while in the process of witnessing just how normal he really is.
The pacing problems with the manga don't just start and end at the beginning though. A lot of crazy cool reveals and "mysteries" that the show sets up for its second half are revealed almost instantaneously in the manga and it feels like a baby fart in comparison. A lot of cool things about Vash aren't treated like they're mysteries at all which I don't like, because the weight of who he is and the responsibility he carries is heavy, but it's treated just as a "yeah so what?" kind of thing in the manga, which is lame as all Hell. The show revealing these things in a slower, more spread-out manner gives the viewer time to speculate, theorize, and come up with their own ideas for certain things, which is more fun than just having the mystery spoiled for you right at the start. There are a lot of "what the fuck was that?" moments that don't get explained until much later, giving the viewer a much more satisfying experience, because past mysteries can be solved with new information that they learn through implication and suggestion in future episodes.
Wolfwood's introduction for example is a whole episode-- it's a filler episode yes, but there's a lot of cool moments in it that build up a mystery around both him and Vash. A lot of "that's kind of weird" moments that don't get an explanation until an actual reveal later. These sorts of things give stories more depth to the moment-to-moment experience, and keep the viewer engaged and wondering about the world and characters. It's better pacing.
Same thing with the Legato reveal as well-- Legato showing up in the manga is a cool moment but the fact that it just kind of happens is lame. The show hides its cards better by waiting longer to reveal Legato and display what the story is really about in full-force. It lulls you into a false sense of security because up until that point the show has been pretty happy-go-lucky and low-stakes. It all just happens too fast in the manga, and the moments never get any opportunities to breathe.
>>553
I believe your familiarity with the anime has led to a slight bias towards it. Just because the anime tries to create a different idea of what Trigun should be doesn't mean that it is the right idea. The Nebraska fight doesn't need buildup; in my opinion, it's a great mood setter, similar to the first episode of Cowboy Bebop. It puts you right into a great action scene that excellently introduces the most important characters in a quick manner.
I don't think stretching out a character introduction for 5 episodes is a good idea, especially because none of the information that is shared in the first 5 episodes is at all necessary. The show could just have started at episode 5, and basically nothing of value would be lost; I wouldn't consider that subtle, slow-paced writing. I'd just consider it useless filler.
Generally, when writing an action movie or show, it is key that you open with a set piece that swiftly introduces the main characters and makes you understand their basic traits before building on them in later episodes. The manga writer knew this and the Nebraska fight is clearly written to be exactly that. Even if the Trigun anime was successful in doing what you state it does, it would still be doing it ass backwards.
Now, granted, I have not completed the manga yet. So I cannot comment on the later points you make. All I can say is that I like the way it opens way better than the anime and the general pacing so far as well. Currently just finished the Prodigal Son story in the manga. I can give the anime credit in that when it does adapt the manga, it doesn't majorly change anything. You could definitely make a fan edit that fixes some of the issues.
>>554
I've already shared my opinion that the earliest episodes of Trigun are some of the weakest and the show would objectively be better off if you cut the first two or so out, but I think that episode 3 is genuinely good and episode 4 is a direct 1:1 adaptation of something that happens in the manga. The problem is that episodes 3 and 4 don't really have a good place in the plot nor' do they have any significance to later characters so they're best suited for the beginning, but neither of those episodes nor' episode 5 are really good for getting the proper gist of the characters.
When the manga opened with the events of episode 5 I was somewhat confused because things were extremely hastily explained and it felt like the author was trying to rush things, which is my biggest problem with the manga in general: the paneling is awful and it makes the events feel too fast, and it makes it too hard to understand what's happening.
I just finished Maximum 33 of the manga series, and while I'm certainly enjoying the experience a lot, I simply cannot understand what is happening or what the author is trying to convey in half of the panels. I LOVE the art style, and the page spreads are absolutely breathtaking, but in average fashion I simply cannot grasp what things are supposed to be. Not only that, but the vagueness of dialogue boxes and who's speaking them (speech bubbles not having directions pointing to whomever is speaking, or extremely vague arrows), as well as the fact that the manga switches between the past, future, present, dream sequences and schizo moments extremely quickly and on a very regular basis.
(Spoilers for the manga on this section)
There was a whole sequence in which the Hornfreak uses his frequencies to blow up something that was in the sky during a big villain moment. Apparently this was a betrayal of one of the Gung-Ho Guns, but nowhere in any previous panels or chapters did I see one of the Guns using some kind of flying machine? Zazie the Beast was using bugs to spy on people previously, and it was implied and somewhat shown that he was controlling a Sandworm off in the background, but the Sandworm doesn't fly and it's very clearly something artificial that Hornfreak destroyed.
So... what was it? I don't know. I've reread the section and examined all of the panels and as far as I can tell he just blows up... "something" that affects Zazie, and counts as a serious betrayal.
Maybe I'm just going insane, but it's a really cool and badass moment that was wasted because I just cannot understand what is happening half of the time.
Characters like Wolfwood just kind of show up and the fact that he's suspicious and mysterious is literally shoved in your face the same fucking book you meet him in, which really dampens a lot of his cool scenes and moments later because the fact that he is suspicious isn't treated like something the reader should wonder about. There's no hints or foreshadowing, there's no clues to find or questions to answer-- it just sort of happens.
The same could be said for a LOT of the mysteries that the anime presents. It's more straightforward, but I like being able to wonder and ask questions about the media I'm consuming as I'm consuming it. The manga showing you all of its cards the second it gets them isn't good writing.
This means that moments lose impact, lines lose weight, scenes become somewhat empty. It becomes too easy to sort of glaze over the blur of movement lines and random incoherent shapes and objects during some sort of fight scene and lose track of what's actually happening. It's a flaw of the paneling and the sheer detail in extremely small panels, as well as the fact that it's in black-and-white and when everything becomes wooshy motion lines, it gets hard to follow stuff.
All of this paired with the already breakneck pace of the manga makes it so that there's no real intrigue or mystery or anything of the sort. Sure, I can't tell what's happening, but not in the good way. This is something that the anime fixes for the most part, as the fact that there are episodes that serve to worldbuild and expand on character traits, backstories, etc. means that it's a lot easier to follow the story when things start to get really thick.
Is the manga bad? Absolutely not, and I think it has a really healthy relationship with the show, as they both have reasons to watch/ read them separately, as well as part of the same "franchise" so-to-speak. The manga is certainly more in-depth and is hugely more mature, gory, and vicious, but it's hard to follow a lot of the time and I think there are a lot of things that the anime does better, narrative-wise.
>>555
To expand on my thoughts about the Nebraska fight, I believe it's hugely improved by having a good amount of buildup in my eyes.
Up until that point in the show, a viewer could excuse the fact that Vash doesn't kill out of a purposeful choice that is a core character trait of his; it is a "kids show" after all. It played on television aimed at younger boys in Japan and is catering to that audience.
The viewer could also be excused for assuming that Vash was just going to be silly and stupid for the entire show as well. He's only serious a few times in episodes 3 and 4 and otherwise acts like a complete retard-- admittedly it's something I dislike about those episodes but it's an intentional misdirection. Vash himself is a very serious character but he pretends not to be in order to protect the people around him. Episode 5 makes it very clear that while he might be "happy-go-lucky", he takes his responsibilities and capabilities deathly seriously.
Alongside the fact that it's not made extremely clear until that moment that Vash refuses to kill on purpose, it's an extremely cool fight that shows just how deep and how ironclad his beliefs are.
Cool moments like that that put on display a character's true nature deserve some buildup, and I think that having an episode or two before that moment would have been perfectly serviceable. It gives the viewer time to really learn and understand the character dynamics in a deeper way than the manga offered. Even all the way to Maximum 34, where I'm at, the Insurance Girls don't feel AT ALL as developed here as they are in the manga. They're important yes, but they don't feel as personal nor' do they feel like they're part of the "main cast". Once again; it's a flaw of the pacing.
4 episodes before the Nebraska fight is too much in my opinion but I've already stated pretty clearly in my previous posts that only the first two are "questionable" in their quality. Episodes 3 and 4 are directly ripped from the manga and 99% of the second half of the show is also ripped from the manga as well. Different, random parts of it are changed but the primary concepts are kept intact.
I finished the manga last night. I'm sort of mixed on it. Expect a shitload of spoilers ahead so DON'T READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED BOTH THE SHOW AND THE MANGA.
I LOVE the art. I think the art rivals legendary mangas like Berserk on a regular basis. There's a shitload of Akira inspiration which means there's a lot of extremely high detail scenes of buildings getting destroyed and everything looks fucking amazing. I wish I took more screenshots because the sheer volume and quality of all of the two-page-spreads was fucking shocking and I want to show them off. The art alone is worth reading the manga, and it NEVER slows down or stops being good.
Unfortunately due to the extremely small panels this leads to a struggle to understand what's happening in certain scenes, and sometimes pages required a re-read from me because I just wasn't following the actions of the characters. Alongside that, the speech bubbles are oftentimes not pointed at any particular character which means that a lot of the time you have to use context clues to even have a chance to figure out who's speaking. Even then, sometimes I was just forced to guess because there was just dialog in bubbles and nothing else.
I feel like if the panels were bigger and the speech bubbles were handled better, the manga would be MUCH more readable. The lack of tails in particular made it a super bad chore to read at times.
The story is extremely good as well. I still feel like the anime handled the plot with much more grace and elegance, removing a lot of superfluous details and things that aren't exactly "necessary" to the experience while still maintaining the themes, messages, and core concepts of the plot. It ties everything together better, there's nothing stupid happening, nothing. It's nice, concise, and gets the job done.
However, the manga provides a much more "full" experience and includes a LOT of things and details that flesh out the characters and world much more. Despite that, I still consider them almost equal.
Wolfwood's arc is much more well done in the manga and I actually cried when he died, which is the first time ANY manga or comic has ever welled up any kind of emotion in me. I wasn't really a fan of Livio/ Razlo at first and I still think it's kind of... ehhhh in my eyes but I think that character was handled very well overall, and I liked how his story ended.
There's a lot of stuff in the manga that's kind of stupid. The whole "Wolfwood is actually several years younger than he appears to be" thing is kind of... meh? It's silly, unnecessary, and it doesn't fit his character in the slightest, but this plot point is used to such emotional effectiveness I can't help but feel like it deserves a pass.
Wolfwood and The Eyes of Michael all being basically superhuman teenagers that drink super-mega-ultra-giganigga-retard-powerful healing potions that make them so durable they can basically get shot as much as they want without dying is also fucking silly and retarded. It feels like some bullshit the author came up with to excuse Wolfwood getting the absolute shit rocked out of him in almost every fight and still surviving. I would have much preferred if the healing potions were something unique to Wolfwood, and that's what made him special in comparison to all of his peers.
I also think that the scene where Vash learns that Wolfwood is a Gung-Ho Gun was cut extremely short and it should have had more impact. It could have and should have been done in an extremely different order in order to bring more weight and context to Wolfwood's final scenes.
It's such a great idea for a perfectly good reveal that would be unfathomably amazing to read that felt like it was done as an "oh yeah there's this too" moment because the author literally forgot about it.
The biggest problem I have with the manga however is the ending; which was kind of a stinker all things considered. I don't like the "rest of humanity" showing up last second, because it feels like the stakes were just sort of fucked with for no reason, and the story wouldn't ACTUALLY be changed if that entire plot beat was removed entirely.
Not only that, but the asspull reveal that the rest of humanity has ALREADY SETTLED on other planets and that No Man's Land is just a backwater shithole that nobody really cares about made the whole experience just lame as shit. Not only that, but apparently Plants turning into basically normal people with magic powers is something that has already been extensively researched and figured out is ???????
Both of those things in combination with the setup of the ending being sort of stupid overall lead to a kind of weak baby fart experience that was only upheld by the sheer excitement and weight of Vash's personal ending. The stakes were fucking pummeled into the ground beyond comprehension when both of those things came to light and it almost retroactively ruined the entire manga for me-- fortunately it's extremely easy to ignore.
All of that being said, I still very much enjoyed the manga and it's going into my "recommend-to-everybody-I-meet" list but I think that the show is a much easier and more 'clean' viewing experience. Shit started to drag on at the end because the final battle is literally like two whole goddamn books which is kind of silly too.